Facebook comments posted to my article “Is The Apocrypha Inspired Scripture?” have proved to be interesting to say the least. Especially when two irate female "apologists," one Roman Catholic and the other a self-professed “Antiochian Orthodox” (the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, not to be confused with the Greek Orthodox church), decided to weigh in and refute my article. Remember now, that the initial article is an argument against the inspiration of the Apocrypha, that consists not simply of my opinion, but historical fact to support my premise. The arguments that were meant to refute my article, however, by and large have nothing whatsoever to do with my premise, nor even with the Apocrypha at all! I'll let you read them and save my comments for the end of this article.
I'll list the Antiochian apologists arguments first (20), followed by the Roman Catholic apologists arguments (13).
A. Arguments Made By The Antiochian Orthodox “Apologist” As A Refutation Against My Article:
1. “The original KJV had the apocrypha. And- those were original and people keep changing things and that is why there are now 40,000 protestant denominations with 60% who don't even believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit or Satan. Cafeteria Christians.”
2. (She then posted the following link) Survey Finds Most American Christians Are Actually Heretics
3. “Let's take Judaism- if Jesus was Jewish as people claim, then why do Jews say there's no heaven/hell or they say that heaven and hell are not actual locations. They also don't believe in original sin.”
4. “There's not even such a thing as "sola scriptura" unless a person lives in a cave, never reads Christian authors outside of the Bible, never listens to their pastors (authorities) and never read any evangelical theologians (more authorities).”
5. “Do you read Christian authors, scholars, theologians, go to a church, have a pastor? If so, you are not Sola Scriptura, sir. Therefore, please stop lying.”
6. “And the apostolic churches had councils- not just one guy like Luther or Calvin who came up with something on their own without any oversight or checks and balances.”
7. “The reason Luther said sola scriptura was not to be taken literally. It was because in his town, priests were doing stuff they shouldn't have been doing. That is all. He didn't intend to dump the Catholic Church. He was a Catholic monk.”
8. “By a COUNCIL of BISHOPS of various nations beyond race, ethnicities, and politics. They were Holy men who transcended all of that. It wasn't just one person who decided by ego or politics. Phiippians 1:1 Paul addresses his BISHOPS, deacons, and saints. Because the twelve were the first bishops.”
9. “St. Mark started the church in Alexandria, Egypt. St. Peter started the church in Antioch and Rome, St. Andrew started the church in Greece, St. Thomas started churches in Africa and India, St. James started the church in Jerusalem- those were the first bishops and each have their own lineage of bishops who carried on the teachings up to this day. This is called apostolic succession.”
10. “Armenia was the first country to have Christiniaty as the official state religion in 301 AD which was 24 years before the Council at Nicea. Ethiopia was the second with Phillip starting the church there.”
11. “Why in the world do protestants who put down apostolic churches even have a Bible when WE ARE THE ONES who compiled the Bible in the first place? Who took the papyri fragments, put them in order, put verse numbers on them, titled the books in the Bible?”
12. “I wish people who degrade the ancient churches would just throw their Bibles away. If not, they're being hypocrites.”
13. “Where did "The Bible" come from Robert Tuttle? Do you think that there were printing presses and everyone carried a Bible around in the early centuries? No one even OWNED a Bible. There was only oral tradition and the priests are the ones who taught people scripture. There were very few copies and only a few in each church. It's not like people could even read half the time. There were also illiterate people. Scripture was handed down through teaching, sermons, hymns, and prayers.”
14. “It cost an entire year's salary just to have one gospel copied because they had to hire scribes to do that. Then, they had to hire checkers to check and proofread the work of the scribes. Paper wasn't even invented. The process of taking reeds of papyrus plants and drying them and turning them into paper was a very long and laborious process. They also had to make ink. Or vellum which was made from the intestines of animals. They used that too.”
15. “And the liturgy was all part of the early Christians. Even evangelical websites mention that Liturgy, communion, baptism was very important.”
16. “Exodus mentions the statues they had in the temple with cherubim, seraphim, and palm trees. The temple did have statues. I'm Orthodox, so we dont' have statues but it's clear there were images even in the Jewish temples. The Dura Europa Synagogue-the oldest synagogue in existence in Syria has murals. Exodus also mentions what the priests wore. It goes into great detail about their robes, what fabric was used and so forth.”
17. “Jesus was a Jewish priest, Robert. the apostles also followed the steps.”
18. “Protestants don't even have a canon, do they? This is why you have people who don't even think the Holy Spirit exists and that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. smh”
19. “Where in Scipture does it say to have rock bands and rock concert lights and tele-evangelists? That's not sola scriptura, is it? There is no such thing as "sola scriptura." There are ancient theologians during the time of the apostles and there are modern ones which you follow. and no need for charities or deeds- that is not biblical at all. It is very clear in James that "Faith without works are dead." And it's clear by early pagan writings that Christians were involved in charities. This is what set them apart from any other.”
20. “Protestants are the ones who started Atlantic Slave Trade and invasions all over the place. They're the ones who killed millions of Catholics and Orthodox and they're the ones who control the world with U.S. and the European Constitutional monarchies. British enslaved Irish Catholics also. Where do you think the term "white trash" comes from? The biggest mass lynching in the U.S. were Italians in New Orleans. Why has the U.S. only had one Catholic president JFK- and look what happened to him? Orthodox and Catholics have Black saints. Do protestants? no.”
B. Arguments Made By The Roman Catholic “Apologist” As A Refutation Against My Article:
1. “who are YOU to decide differently? Who was Martin Luther to decide differently? What was considered Cannon was determined by councils like the council of Jerusalem not individuals. You have no say in the matter of what is or is not inspired scripture. You have no more authority to decide than Mormons who decided that the Book of Mormon is inspired.”
2. “I ask you again. Who are YOU to decided what is inspired and what isn't? The church decided in COUNCILS. What was determined inspired was NEVER by individuals. THIS is how things were decided.” (she then posted a link to Acts chapter 15 on the Bible Gateway website).
3. “The Church always decided things with councils not by individuals. This is our problem. You can not accept what the developing church decided.”
4. “The early church didn't even have a New Testament Robert.”
5. “Well, you are doing the same thing Martin Luther did by telling us what belongs or doesn't belong in scripture Robert. We are just telling you you have no authority to tell us what belongs in scripture and what doesn't. The CHURCH decided.”
6. “Jesus said "Upon this Rock I will BUILD my church". He intended to build it over time not in the first 3 centuries.”
7. “Robert. You have no authority to decide what is inspired and what isn't inspired or what books belong or don't belong in scripture . I don't either. THE CHURCH which the bible calls the PILLAR FOUNDATION OF TRUTH has already decided. 1 Timothy 3:15 'But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.'”
8. “AND, Stained Glass Windows and Statues to tell the stories of the bible and early Christianity because most Christians were illiterate before this century. You can thank the Catholic Church for preserving your bible for you Robert Tuttle or you wouldn't have one.”
9. “Bible's up until the printing press 1440 (which is the reason the bible spread to individuals) were like owning the hope diamond. They were EXPENSIVE and RARE. No one was trying to keep them from anyone, they were just hand-copied on papyrus. No one could afford one.”
10. “You think Jesus really meant to DUMP all of Judaism Robert?”
11. “You are ignoring Jesus.”
12. “We are posting INFORMATION that you clearly do not want to consider Robert. We are having a DISCUSSION which you clearly do not want to have with anyone who doesn't agree with you. Deaf ears.”
13. “Later Robert. You aren't interested in what anyone has to say besides yourself. That is what I have found about most protestants. It's all about ME not Jesus. You only care about your own thoughts. You have proven that over and over in these discussions. You like to hear yourself.”
Now please bear in mind that these comments were posted rapid fire, with virtually no response from me (not that I could get a word in edgewise had I felt inclined to try). I will not insult Roman Catholics or Antiochian Orthodox followers by stating or insinuating that all Roman Catholics or Antiochian Orthodox followers are as off-the-wall as these two ladies. I don't believe they are. But this does, I think, illustrate the denialism that exists within these two groups among some of their members.
Several years ago I engaged in a debate with a fellow, who, after the 16 hour debate stated, “You know Bob, you present a pretty convincing argument. You really know your stuff. But I have to say, I don't care what the truth is, I know what I believe.”
“I don't care what the truth is, I know what I believe.” I think if this fellow were to start his own religion, these two ladies would be among the first to sign up.
I'll list the Antiochian apologists arguments first (20), followed by the Roman Catholic apologists arguments (13).
A. Arguments Made By The Antiochian Orthodox “Apologist” As A Refutation Against My Article:
1. “The original KJV had the apocrypha. And- those were original and people keep changing things and that is why there are now 40,000 protestant denominations with 60% who don't even believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit or Satan. Cafeteria Christians.”
2. (She then posted the following link) Survey Finds Most American Christians Are Actually Heretics
3. “Let's take Judaism- if Jesus was Jewish as people claim, then why do Jews say there's no heaven/hell or they say that heaven and hell are not actual locations. They also don't believe in original sin.”
4. “There's not even such a thing as "sola scriptura" unless a person lives in a cave, never reads Christian authors outside of the Bible, never listens to their pastors (authorities) and never read any evangelical theologians (more authorities).”
5. “Do you read Christian authors, scholars, theologians, go to a church, have a pastor? If so, you are not Sola Scriptura, sir. Therefore, please stop lying.”
6. “And the apostolic churches had councils- not just one guy like Luther or Calvin who came up with something on their own without any oversight or checks and balances.”
7. “The reason Luther said sola scriptura was not to be taken literally. It was because in his town, priests were doing stuff they shouldn't have been doing. That is all. He didn't intend to dump the Catholic Church. He was a Catholic monk.”
8. “By a COUNCIL of BISHOPS of various nations beyond race, ethnicities, and politics. They were Holy men who transcended all of that. It wasn't just one person who decided by ego or politics. Phiippians 1:1 Paul addresses his BISHOPS, deacons, and saints. Because the twelve were the first bishops.”
9. “St. Mark started the church in Alexandria, Egypt. St. Peter started the church in Antioch and Rome, St. Andrew started the church in Greece, St. Thomas started churches in Africa and India, St. James started the church in Jerusalem- those were the first bishops and each have their own lineage of bishops who carried on the teachings up to this day. This is called apostolic succession.”
10. “Armenia was the first country to have Christiniaty as the official state religion in 301 AD which was 24 years before the Council at Nicea. Ethiopia was the second with Phillip starting the church there.”
11. “Why in the world do protestants who put down apostolic churches even have a Bible when WE ARE THE ONES who compiled the Bible in the first place? Who took the papyri fragments, put them in order, put verse numbers on them, titled the books in the Bible?”
12. “I wish people who degrade the ancient churches would just throw their Bibles away. If not, they're being hypocrites.”
13. “Where did "The Bible" come from Robert Tuttle? Do you think that there were printing presses and everyone carried a Bible around in the early centuries? No one even OWNED a Bible. There was only oral tradition and the priests are the ones who taught people scripture. There were very few copies and only a few in each church. It's not like people could even read half the time. There were also illiterate people. Scripture was handed down through teaching, sermons, hymns, and prayers.”
14. “It cost an entire year's salary just to have one gospel copied because they had to hire scribes to do that. Then, they had to hire checkers to check and proofread the work of the scribes. Paper wasn't even invented. The process of taking reeds of papyrus plants and drying them and turning them into paper was a very long and laborious process. They also had to make ink. Or vellum which was made from the intestines of animals. They used that too.”
15. “And the liturgy was all part of the early Christians. Even evangelical websites mention that Liturgy, communion, baptism was very important.”
16. “Exodus mentions the statues they had in the temple with cherubim, seraphim, and palm trees. The temple did have statues. I'm Orthodox, so we dont' have statues but it's clear there were images even in the Jewish temples. The Dura Europa Synagogue-the oldest synagogue in existence in Syria has murals. Exodus also mentions what the priests wore. It goes into great detail about their robes, what fabric was used and so forth.”
17. “Jesus was a Jewish priest, Robert. the apostles also followed the steps.”
18. “Protestants don't even have a canon, do they? This is why you have people who don't even think the Holy Spirit exists and that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. smh”
19. “Where in Scipture does it say to have rock bands and rock concert lights and tele-evangelists? That's not sola scriptura, is it? There is no such thing as "sola scriptura." There are ancient theologians during the time of the apostles and there are modern ones which you follow. and no need for charities or deeds- that is not biblical at all. It is very clear in James that "Faith without works are dead." And it's clear by early pagan writings that Christians were involved in charities. This is what set them apart from any other.”
20. “Protestants are the ones who started Atlantic Slave Trade and invasions all over the place. They're the ones who killed millions of Catholics and Orthodox and they're the ones who control the world with U.S. and the European Constitutional monarchies. British enslaved Irish Catholics also. Where do you think the term "white trash" comes from? The biggest mass lynching in the U.S. were Italians in New Orleans. Why has the U.S. only had one Catholic president JFK- and look what happened to him? Orthodox and Catholics have Black saints. Do protestants? no.”
B. Arguments Made By The Roman Catholic “Apologist” As A Refutation Against My Article:
1. “who are YOU to decide differently? Who was Martin Luther to decide differently? What was considered Cannon was determined by councils like the council of Jerusalem not individuals. You have no say in the matter of what is or is not inspired scripture. You have no more authority to decide than Mormons who decided that the Book of Mormon is inspired.”
2. “I ask you again. Who are YOU to decided what is inspired and what isn't? The church decided in COUNCILS. What was determined inspired was NEVER by individuals. THIS is how things were decided.” (she then posted a link to Acts chapter 15 on the Bible Gateway website).
3. “The Church always decided things with councils not by individuals. This is our problem. You can not accept what the developing church decided.”
4. “The early church didn't even have a New Testament Robert.”
5. “Well, you are doing the same thing Martin Luther did by telling us what belongs or doesn't belong in scripture Robert. We are just telling you you have no authority to tell us what belongs in scripture and what doesn't. The CHURCH decided.”
6. “Jesus said "Upon this Rock I will BUILD my church". He intended to build it over time not in the first 3 centuries.”
7. “Robert. You have no authority to decide what is inspired and what isn't inspired or what books belong or don't belong in scripture . I don't either. THE CHURCH which the bible calls the PILLAR FOUNDATION OF TRUTH has already decided. 1 Timothy 3:15 'But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.'”
8. “AND, Stained Glass Windows and Statues to tell the stories of the bible and early Christianity because most Christians were illiterate before this century. You can thank the Catholic Church for preserving your bible for you Robert Tuttle or you wouldn't have one.”
9. “Bible's up until the printing press 1440 (which is the reason the bible spread to individuals) were like owning the hope diamond. They were EXPENSIVE and RARE. No one was trying to keep them from anyone, they were just hand-copied on papyrus. No one could afford one.”
10. “You think Jesus really meant to DUMP all of Judaism Robert?”
11. “You are ignoring Jesus.”
12. “We are posting INFORMATION that you clearly do not want to consider Robert. We are having a DISCUSSION which you clearly do not want to have with anyone who doesn't agree with you. Deaf ears.”
13. “Later Robert. You aren't interested in what anyone has to say besides yourself. That is what I have found about most protestants. It's all about ME not Jesus. You only care about your own thoughts. You have proven that over and over in these discussions. You like to hear yourself.”
Now please bear in mind that these comments were posted rapid fire, with virtually no response from me (not that I could get a word in edgewise had I felt inclined to try). I will not insult Roman Catholics or Antiochian Orthodox followers by stating or insinuating that all Roman Catholics or Antiochian Orthodox followers are as off-the-wall as these two ladies. I don't believe they are. But this does, I think, illustrate the denialism that exists within these two groups among some of their members.
Several years ago I engaged in a debate with a fellow, who, after the 16 hour debate stated, “You know Bob, you present a pretty convincing argument. You really know your stuff. But I have to say, I don't care what the truth is, I know what I believe.”
“I don't care what the truth is, I know what I believe.” I think if this fellow were to start his own religion, these two ladies would be among the first to sign up.
RSS Feed
